GS-Riders International

The following text and picture are published here by courtesy of Steve (member 'dargonfire' at http://www.advrider.com ). The copyright on all text and pictures is with Steve. I owned a DL1000 myself, and have ridden the DL650 a couple of time. I think his write-up is a clear, conchise and competend comparison. I just had to ask Steve for permission. Check for yourself:


BMW R1200GS vs. DL1000 Vs. KTM950S Vs. DL650 Long Novel


To the collective. I had a day off so I wrote a novel.

I know it's REALLY long but I thought my ownership experiences might help another member with a purchase decision.

I noticed through the last couple of years that there are many Brand X vs. Brand Y threads but almost
no real ownership experiences from people who have owned more than just 2 of the above listed bikes.
There are the usual one to one comparos and questions of which one should I buy..? But no real in
depth listing of comparisons between the above listed bikes and or thier dealers.

Taa daa.... Until Now.

I have had the opportunity to own and operate each of the above listed machines for more
than a full season and I thought I would share my direct experiences
with each bike as I saw them. The reason this is in the GS forum is that the bike that
I eventually settled on was a 2007 R1200GS.

My riding experience is pretty vast. Dirt bikes started at 10. Had my motorcycle licence 2 years
before my car licence. Raced some club level enduros in the teens. Dropped out of the sport
for a couple years after University but have been riding ever since. Have owned about 14 different
bikes through the years and currently use the bike as primary transport for 75% of the year.

I am 6' tall, 32 inch inseam and about 190 lbs. All ergonomics and sizing issues are obviously based on me.

Adventure Bikes in order of purchase are listed below.

Ownership impressions of each bike as they pertain to my experiences are listed under each bikes heading.


2002 Suzuki DL1000



Bought new. Owned for 2.5 years.
24 000km on it when sold.

Farkles during ownership
- stainless brake lines front only
- race pads front only
- heated grips
- heat troller ( panel mount ) for vest
- cut windshield
- PC Commander
- air filter
- Two Brothers exhaust ( cans only )
- Sylvania Blue bulbs
- GIVI rear racks
- GIVI cases top and sides
- GIVI engine guards

The best all around engine of the group. Easily had the most power ( if tuned properly )but required
a pipe / air filter and PC Commander to get the best out of the engine and throttle response. The low end fuel injection was
lurchy in stock form but the yank it would give above 5000rpm was awesome. Had ok fuel mileage with an average
tank lasting about 340 km with normal driving. Spirited driving would drop that figure down to about 280km
and down to about 250 with the performance upgrades installed. Also the second least vibey behind the DL650.
Way less vibration than either the KTM or GS.

The handling was good but some issues that needed correcting almost right away were the front forks
and rear spring rate. Both were too soft but it was an easy fix with aftermarket springs front and rear. The
forks also benefited from a Race tech gold valve upgrade ( huge performance increase ). A very top heavy feel
is difficult to mask regardless of what mods you do to the bike. Always a handfull at low speeds. The brakes were
also in need of an update with stainless lines and upgraded pads. The stock brakes on the DL1000 were easily the
worst of the bunch and even with the upgrade they were not as good as the GS or KTM.

Comfort on the V-Strom was good as I personally found the stock seat to be the best of the group.
I thought about going aftermarket but I could ride for about 4 hrs. without getting too sore so I just left it.
Positioning was good with a slightly tighter length between the pegs and seat than either the GS or KTM.

Some of the most positive attributes of the bike were the headlights, low cost of ownership and relativley smooth engine.
The headlights were amazing with far more overall light and a better pattern than either the KTM or GS. The bike was also relatively
cheap with a total cost of $10.5k OTD when I bought it. The bike also never came out of maintenance spec. with the
valves staying in tolerance for my entire ownership.

I can say that even though the V-Strom had glowing reviews for reliability it was the worst bike of the
group. Failures included :

- clutch control switch
- clutch chudder
- kick stand switch
- leaking rad hoses
- leaking water pump cover


This doesn't sound like much but the clutch, and kick stand switch were intermittently bad and would sporadically cause
the bike to not start. This happened on a couple of trips and if it had occurred to someone with less mechanical
inclination it would have ended either trip with a tow truck visit to a shop. The clutch chudder was also very noticeable
once the bike got more than 2000km on it. I argued with my dealer about fixing the issues but they refused. The clutch / kickstand
switches would never fail when they were looking at it and they flat out refused any knowledge of an issue with the
clutch chudder. I just gave up on Suzuki warranty as unless the bike was visibly damaged they were not even going
to look at it.

The absolute worst aspect of the bike though was the windshield. I don't know what Suzuki were thinking
but I seriously doubt they had anyone over 5' 4" tall ride the bike for any length of time befor releasing it. I tried
Cee Baileys, GIVI, etc. and eventually gave up and cut the top 6" off the shield. It was colder and a little wetter but
the air reaching my helmet was now clean and relatively noise free. There is something seriously wrong with a design when a hacksaw fixes a problem that shouldn't have been there in the first place.

The V-Strom is absolutely in no way a capable machine off road. It is too top heavy and has limited
ground clearance, jerky low speed throttle response, too tall a first gear, etc. etc.

The final bonus though was selling it years after purchase for almost 70% of what I paid for it new. Sweet.

Overall the DL1000 is a great bike and the price difference between it and the competition can
allow for all of the upgrades needed to make the bike perform nearly as well as the others. You will even
have cash left over for other goodies or insurance just don't think it will go off road in any capacity that resembles fun.



2005.5 KTM 950S ( Flanny's old bike )



Bought used from Flanny. Owned for 1.5 years.
Bought with 7200 KM. Traded in with 14 000km.

Farkles during ownership
- KTM engine guards
- KTM carbon case guards
- GIVI Rear top box
- Euro headlight
- PIAA bulbs
- upgraded seat foam
- heated grips
- heat troller ( panel mount ) for vest

I bought this bike thinking it would be great to have one bike that could go pretty much anywhere
I wanted. Single track, fireroads, open hwy., twisty blacktop etc. were all on my mind after reading the reviews and accolades
the bike was receiving from magazines and internet sites the world over. When I got it into my head that I needed
this machine I started looking for one in my area.

None... nadda... zip.

One dealer in the Toronto area and they were out of thier allotment
for the year so I started looking for a used one.

None... nadda... zip.

Looked for about 2 months and decided I was going to have to import one from Quebec or the US. But then I saw an ad on ADV
by Flanny for one of his 2 KTM 950's. I took a quick drive out to Ottawa to look at the bike. Flawless. Test drove it. Awesome.
Cost.... a little too much. So I went back to looking again. Found some other bikes in the US and Montreal. Called
Flanny back and gave him an offer based on what else I had found. We haggled and I got a good deal ( thanks Flanny : ).

Upon bringing the bike back to the homestead I started noticing that it was much taller than I had remembered
when I test rode it. No problem I thought: I'll get used to it. So I adjusted the suspension for my weight and riding
style and started riding it everywhere. Awesome.

The engine didn't have the outright grunt of the DL1000 but the free revving nature made it feel more
visceral. It would literally leap at any throttle input. And the fueling was absolutely faultless. The KTM 950 reminded
me of my VTR1000 in how well it metered gas on throttle pick up. Super smooth with no bumps in the power. The controls
were also super light in feel and very smooth with everything feeling very sporty.

Then I noticed the abysmal gas mileage. If I was being really nice with the throttle hand I could barely get 320km
on a tank. If I was seriously enjoying the engineering I could get as little as
180km per tankfull. I know many riders don't really care about this stuff but for me one of the advantages of bike
ownership is the fact that I am being more responsible ( environmentally ) then the average car owner. With the KTM getting
worse gas mileage than my car I was seriously thinking there was something amiss. I was carrying 2 litres more than the V-Strom
and still stopping way sooner.

I started riding it more and more and started noticing some other things that were not readily apparent on the
short test rides I had taken earlier. The engine felt awesome except for a VERY bad vibe at around 5300rpm. This wouldn't
have been a problem if it hadn't exactly correlated to the hwy speed I normally travel at. Riding the bike any distance
would put my hands and feet to sleep in about 45 minutes. The seat was horrible. I know they changed the design later on
but I think the seat design team at KTM probably had drinks with the windshield design team from Suzuki at some point.
Both of those items should never have made it to production.

So I bought some foam and gutted the stock saddle to make my own. One of the problems solved.

After changing the seat foam I started noticing the ride height more and more. The bike was unwieldy in parking lots
and off road ( at slow speed ) because of the mental aspect of not being able to dab a toe down. This and the fact that even though it was a very
well balanced bike it still weighed 500+lbs with fuel. My off road excursions were great but you were always aware that
you were straddling a bike that weighed as much as a horse. If you put your foot down at the wrong time or mis-judged
braking distance you could be in a lot of trouble really fast. My conclusion was that a 500lb motorcycle does not a good dirt
bike make. The fatigue you would get riding a day off road on the KTM would equal 3 days off road with a normal ( sub-300lb )
dirt bike. It was an entertaining experience to ride the KTM off road and it was almost euphoric to handle it well in terrain
that wasn't really intended to be ridden on by such a large bike but.... I was always thinking if this thing decides it wants
to go somewhere I don't that is basically tough crap for me.

Now mind you the above is probably sounding REALLY negative and I don't really want it to. You see the KTM
was an amazing motorcycle in every aspect of it's INTENDED performance. I just don't think that the intended performance
envelope of the 905S is one that is realistically required by most riders looking at that type of bike.

The KTM would cover ground quicker than any of the other bikes listed but it would always feel as though it
NEEDED to go faster. There is a very race bike like feel to it in every aspect of it's handling and this can be
be fatiguing in many ways. The bike is light and crisp feeling but at the same time can feel twitchy. The chasis and
engine are more than capable on the road but the 21" front wheel and small contact patch can make the nose feel vague.
The longer travel suspension allowed it to go off road at speeds I never thought I would ride on a 500+ plus bike
but it ran wide on long sweeping corners on the road.

It is the most labour intensive bike to work on. Very easy to dis-assemble but there is a lot of stuff
to go through to do routine maintenance. Oil change and valve check are a full day affair and god forbid I need
to do an adjustment while in there because my local KTM dealer WON'T have the parts in stock and the bike
will remain in pieces for anywhere from a week to 2-3 months while I wait for the pieces to put it back together.

Now I knew going into the purchase that the KTM had issues, as far as reliability, and I was aware of all
of the pitfalls prior to ownership but I was still surprised at the number of times it had a problem.

- 2 months into ownership it spit most of it's coolant onto my right boot while riding
-adjusted the stock hose clamps
- did it again a month later
- replaced clamps
- due to KTM using spring loaded hose clamps I had to completely tear down the rad ( empty the fluid )
to fix a hose leak ( no small task given the amount of crap covering the rad and hoses )
- bike died twice in the rain on the highway at speed ( not fun )
- both times the rear plug cap had come off
- lots of stalling ( never could get the idle just right )
- paint flaking off of gas tanks
- water pump
- ran out of gas twice
- clutch actuation cylinder leakage

In the fall I had an opportunity to go for a ride with a friend of the wifes who used to race national
level enduro. He had a 1200GS and I was on the KTM. I thought ....

well hey... I have the offroad advantage. I know what I am doing and have the better bike.

Wrong.

He was on full street tires and I could still barely keep him in sight with the KTM on semi knobbies. The GS was going
everywhere faster and with seemingly less effort. Damn. Maybe the rider has more to do with the ride then the bike.

After much thought I decided the KTM was too much of a dirt bike wannabe and not enough of a regular driver
or the regular driver was not enough of a dirt biker to ride the bike the way it was supposed to be ridden.
Now I am pretty sure that much of this was because I was on the S model and not the standard 950. I decided after the
year and a half that I wasn't enjoying the bike as much as I would like so I started looking for a replacement. Even with
the troubles I experienced I thought I would give KTM another try with the 990 as it had a couple more years of development
behind it and should be more reliable.

I saw the 990 coming out and decided that this looked very promising. It would retain the details I liked
about the 950S and it seemingly fixed many of the other issues.

Lower seat height
Lower suspension
Better seat
EFI ( better mileage )
ABS ( always wanted that )

Now this is where the KTM brand lost it for me...

I started looking around at purchasing a 990. Called all of the dealers in my area for pricing and availability.
I asked if I could reserve a 990 with a deposit and mentioned that I had a trade in that I would relinquish when the
new bike arrived. All of them asked what kind of trade in I had... I said 2005 905S. They said sorry... not interested.
What...?!? The KTM dealers didn't even want the bikes back. They refused to take any 950 in on a trade. They would only
take the bike on consignment and it needed to be in the shop while I waited for the new bike. If the new bike arrived
and the old bike hadn't sold I would still be required to take the new bike and try to sell the old one myself. If I wanted
to sell my bike privately I would have to do it on my own after placing a deposit on the 990. If the 990 came in befor
I had the cash from the sale of the 950 I would also be required to buy the 990 or loose my deposit. 4 KTM dealers all
said the same thing.

Now I know that owning a bike does not mean the manufacturers dealerships are obligated to accept said bike
as a trade but this was the first time I have ever had a dealer flat out refuse a trade in. They wouldn't even take
it on fire sale. No price was low enough for them to bring it back onto thier sales floor.

Sorry ... not interested.

If the dealers didn't even want them I was starting to think that I should get out of it ASAP as well. It turned
out to be good thinking as that fall I saw 2 KTM 950's listed in the local auto trader for less than half of what they had been
purchased for new less than 2 years prior. Made good decision.

Just to clarify... I don't usually buy a bike concerned about the depreciation but the KTM had enough issues that loosing a large sum over a year of ownership was becoming less and less palatable and eventually became a factor in the decision to sell it.


2007 BMW R1200GS



Bought new this spring.
16 500 km on it now. Hopefully will have closer to 18k befor there is too much snow here to ride.

Farkles during ownership
- PIAA 1100 lighing system
- BMW side luggage
- GIVI top case
- SW MOtech engine guards
- Sargent saddle
- heated vest controller
- ZUMO GPS
- PIAA bulb upgrade
- Cee Baileys screen and winglets
- Hippo Hands

This bike was a complete fluke. I was seriously considering buying another V-Strom after the KTM and
wasn't really looking at the Beemer. I had eyeballed them as a younger lad and always thought they had that
rugged go anywhere visual appeal but I never saw myself owning a BMW. A little too foo-foo for my tastes and
with all the hoity doity brand image stuff adding 40% to the price tag I was even less interested.

After doing some research I decided that I needed to add the GS to my list of potential bikes just because
it was in the same category of bike I was interested in.

So I went to the Suzuki ( V-Strom ) dealer and got price quotes. Told no test rides and no KTM on trade.

Went to the Triumph ( Tiger ) dealer and got price quotes. Told no test rides and no KTM on trade.

Went to the Ducati Dealer ( Multi ) and got price quotes. Told no test rides and no KTM on trade.

Then I went to the BMW dealer and got a price quote, and a test ride, and a three hour conversation
about bikes in general, and a decent cup of coffee, and an offer to take the KTM on
trade site unseen. Huh.... ? I was stunned.


Now the test ride was good but I wasn't in any capacity blown away. The bike felt very planted. Had better torque than
either of the other bikes but lacked top end and was kinda funny looking. Coming from the V-strom and KTM I had gotten
used to the oddball looks of this class of bike but something about the BMW really looked different.

I came home and took photos of the KTM to email down to the salesguy. Within 24 hours I got an offer that when
tax adjusted was only $1000.00 less than what I had paid for the bike the year before. I told him I would
take it. If only for the knowledge that I was able to get most of my cash out of the KTM and into something that was
going to have a much lower level of depreciation. I was still not 100% sure I would like the bike.

I gave them the KTM. They sold it in less than 24 hours due to some interest I had generated on the
bike on ADV.

March comes and I get a call. Bike is in when would you like it DELIVERED to your house.... wow. Cool. They delivered
the bike TO MY HOUSE ( free of charge ) on a snowy day at the exact time they said they would be there. Even brought thier head wrench
to go over the bike with me... IN MY HOUSE.... wow. Cool.

So the temp starts going up and I get the itch to take the beast out. Do the non-manual recommended break in.
Ride it like you stole it.... And I am off for a full 740km day.

First days response is Wow.

Throttle response is excellent across the range. Engine has TONS of torque and is quite smooth below 4500rpm. Above 4500rpm the engine is vibey but the vibrations are not nearly as intrusive as on the KTM.
Windshield actually works and is a far cry better than either of the other 2 previous bikes. It is already getting 340 kms
per tank and it isn't even broken in yet. It's cold out and my feet are still warm ( only boxer riders will understand that one ).
The seat is almost as good as the V-stroms. I even ride a little too zealously on some not so clear ( salt covered ) roads and have
the ABS kick in twice. Wow... cool. Saved my ass already.

After taking that first ride on the bike in the spring I have quickly come to the realization that the 1200GS
was the right purchase. It is the most comfortable of all of the bikes both in rider position and general wind management.
It gets almost as good gas mileage as the DL650 but has WAY more power. I have put over 16K on it in less than 7 months
and 3700k of that was on a blast through Wisconsin over 3 days. Above all of it's amazing attributes the GS absolutely inhales
roads. Doesn't want to go home is an accolade none of the other bikes carries as well the GS.

The GS is quirky though and people coming into a GS purchase with the thinking that the bike will be
butter smooth, refined and irritation free will be in for a surprise.

The transmission doesn't like shifting into first about 50% of the time... just need to rock the bike a little.

You need to be wary of proper throttle body sync. You WILL know when they are out.

The weird switchgear ( signals, etc. ) takes some time to get used to but it will become more intuitive as you use it.

It will burn oil for a while.

It will not like sitting in traffic with no wind on a very hot day.

You will feel the occasional shaft drive kick through the pegs.

The gas gas gauge is useless. A cruel joke on BMW's part.

Out of all 4 bikes the GS has been the most reliable. It has always started, always run like a top and always received
consistent gas mileage. No shaft drive problems. No oil leaking. No ABS crap. No electrical issues. Nothing... just great riding.

I decided at the time of the purchase that if anything major happened during the warranty period ( ie. over $2k in
warranty repairs ) I would consider selling it. This was mainly due to the negative stuff I was reading on the forums ( ie. final drive, dr. abs., etc. ) But upon owning it I have started taking most of the chat page negatives
with a much larger grain of salt. It would take a huge catastrophe for me to part with this bike now. It is that good.

After break-in the GS consistently receives 380km per tank. Even driving hard I rarely get less than 320km / tank
and sometimes get as much aw 410km.

It is also the easiest of all of the bikes to perform general maintenance on. Everything is either out in the open or 6 twist clips
away from being revealed from beneath a tank panel.

The best attribute of the GS though is the fluid way it handles. The easiest way to describe it is very dampened
in all of it's chasis reactions. The low ( and wide ) center of gravity gives the bike a feeling of stability that none
of the others exhibited. Rock solid everywhere. The Telelever also keeps the forward / aft weight pitch to a minimum but takes
some getting used to. No brake dive is an alien feeling on a long travel bike but once you get accustomed to it it
is awesome.

Contrary to what other reviews have stated the GS will go absolutely anywhere the KTM will. It will just
go slower and in doing so the GS will be more stable at the same time. Slow speed off road handling is the GS's
advantage over the KTM. The lower center of gravity and stability add a huge amount of confidence to most off road
maneuvers. The KTM is better at speed and has a big advantage in deep sand as the 19" front wheel of the BMW
does not track as well as the 21". But on the road the BMW's 19" gives way more confidence.

The new Conti ABS linked brakes are the best I have ever experienced on a motorcycle. The front / back
balance is perfect and using only the lever for all braking is very addictive. A year ago I would have said that
linked brakes / ABS were lazy and that a good rider could stop better in all situations without them. After riding the GS for the year
and having used the ABS on a few panic stops I have changed my tune. If you are looking at buying a bike and have
the option of ABS do yourself a favour and get it. It will only take one emergency stop in shitty conditions
to pay for itself in spades and most of the time you won't even know it's there. I don't even turn it off when going
off road anymore.


2007 Suzuki DL650



Wife's bike.
Bought new this spring. Now has 4500 km.

Farkles during ownership.
- hand guards
- Givi engine guards
- Givi Top Case and rack
- heated grips
- Heat Troller dash mount for heated vest
- lowered suspension ( 1" from stock )
- Hippo Hands
- Suzuki center stand

The DL650 was the sleeper of the group. My wife had owned 2 previous SV650's and loved the engine
but found the ergonomics to be less than ideal. She kept saying she wanted that engine in a long distance
capable chassis so the baby V-Strom was ideal.

The only really negative is that even though it is substantially lighter than it bigger brother
it still retains the top heavy feel that makes it a handful at low speed. This is even more evident if
you are 5' 5" tall and 135lbs. So we lowered the bike a full inch, put some engine guards on ( just in case )
and she was in love.

After the break in was complete I would take the odd occasion out on the baby Wee instead of the
GS and was very surprised to find how competent a bike it really is. Ultra smooth motor, good bottom end
torque, comfortable ergos, and amazing gas mileage.

The motor on the Suzuki 650 V-twins is amazing. It is the smoothest V-twin I have ever tried
with absolutely glitch free power delivery from idle all the way to redline. It is so smooth that you
can run the bike up to redline without even thinking about it. No buzz in the bars, no buzz in the seat,
no buzz in the pegs... just smooth power everywhere. The best motor of the bunch to soak up hwy's on.
It doesn't even feel like it's running. Gas mileage is also amazing with 450km tankfulls not uncommon.

The ergos are the same as the DL1000 in that they are very good. The only downfall for me was the
seat height is a little lower than on the 1000 so the peg / seat distance is a touch closer. I had left
knee pain after about 4 hours on this bike which did not occur on any of the others.

The windshield still sucks. Nothing like redesigning something so that the only advantage is
cosmetic. Thanks Suzuki. Aftermarket shield is coming next year.... the wife is short enough though
that the stock screen is at least livable for her.

Brakes are the same as the DL1000 so they are not that great. One advantage though is they
are stopping less weight so they work a little better. Still need to budget for some stainless lines
and pads up front. In hindsight we should have waited until we could get an ABS model but the allotment
for Ontario had completely sold out for the year. If the wife ends up riding even half as much as
I do we may look at upgrading to the ABS model in the future.

Reliability has been great but the overall build quality is a little suspect. Installing some
of the farkles resulted in 3 stripped threads while using a torque wrench at the recommended settings.
Other than the soft bolts it has run like a top since new.

The handling on the Wee-Strom is awesome. Super light feeling with plenty of stability. With
a suspension upgrade ( Ohlins rear / springs cartridge front ) and brakes this bike would stay with almost anything
in the twisties.

It is better than the 1000 offroad but still comes nowhere near the KTM and GS in dirt ability.
You need to spend a small fortune to get it truly dirt worthy. By dirt worthy I mean OFF ROAD... not fire road
or double track. I consider off road to be somewhere I wouldn't be able to ride an FZ1000 on a dry day.

After riding the bike sporadically for the past year it has become the standout of the bunch.
Not because of it's outright performance but because of the value of the package in light of it's initial
ownership costs. It was half the price of the GS but is in no way half the motorcycle. With $2K in upgrades
the DL650 would be 95% of the bike the GS is and still be 40% less expensive. If Suzuki ever blends the 2
lines together ( 650 / 1000 ) and makes an 800cc version of this bike I would have to think long and hard
before picking the GS over it. But they don't.

Thanks for taking the time to read my ownership novel. I will try to answer any questions on direct comparisons between
any of the bikes.


Cheers,

Steve

Quoted from "ghostrider1964"

I too had put gold valves and progressive springs on the Strom which helped the suspension. Even still, after riding the GSA, I did not want to ride my Strom home that night.

After I bought the GS I still kept my V-Strom 1000. BMW's get a good price here, it would have been not too much loss in case I would not like it, or if it proved being unreliable (as what the BS suggests which is spread around on the net). 10 months later I had less 1.000 km added to the V-Strom, and 17.000 km to the GS. It just feels toyish after the GS, could not bring myself to ride it anymore.

I loved my V-Strom but not Suzuki. The frustration levels over Suzuki have sometimes spoiled my mood even to ride at all. I can not recommend a Suzuki to anyone who lives in an area with weak Suzuki support, and if there is only a bad Suzuki representative then I would definitely avoid new models. I had Hondas and Yamahas, none was flawless. But nobody was as harsh at brushing customers off. Personally I'll never buy a Suzuki in my live again. Unless I'd learn this company has changed their customer attitude radically.

Over my first 40.000 km the cost of GS ownership have been lower as comparing to my V-S, which compensates for the very high purchase price. I encountered one situation where the GS left me stranded at the road side. This should not happen. I had never a being stranded on the roadside situation with the V-Strom. However what I do not have with the GS are all this small small issues which made me constantly looking after the V-S, stealing my time. My GS operates practically maintenance free in between the services. Except having an eye on the oil gauge and here and then changing a headlight bulb there is not much else to do.

BMW service made up for the one 'being stranded' experience with efficient service. So far I'd give BMW 7.5/10. Sometimes even 10/10 if I only look at the quality of their work. I had not a single complaint so far of anything not done as like from the book. Such things are a very positive experience: Doing a regular service the mechanic noticed a sweating seal at the clutch slave cylinder. The part was ordered by over-night service from the warehouse in Thailand. I did not have a minute of inconvenience, nor was there any unpleasant discussion such as me using wrong lubricants. On my V-S there was a very similar issue. I was send away with some of the dumbest speak in my live (no warranty of course) about my chain oiler and steam cleaning.

Good and reliable service - also in terms of parts supply - is extremely important for regions where not every few meters a workshop exists. Will see how it goes with the BMW service now, after the warranty has expired.

Ride-wise I have nothing much to add to the above opinion to GS and V-S. I remember after a few weeks of owning the GS I had to force myself to at least sometimes riding the V-S. I had kept it for almost a year, because I was influenced by all the negative opinions about GS reliability. It was a waste of money.

If I was in the market again I would consider the F 800 GS (lighter for me here in Singapore). I am adventure tourer enthusiast, I am not in particular a boxer fan, nor do I need necessarily a shaft drive (even though it's very nice). It was not available at the time I bought my R 12 GS. What I do think is indispensable however is the ABS brake, and the 12 GS's ABS brake is the best. Heck I am not even a real BMW fan. If there was a Varadero with 50 kg lesser weight, I knew what was my bike.

Quoted from "ghostrider1964"

Do I hear a Varadero forum next???? :laugh:

I am exited about the 1200 Tenere, which is overdue and nobody seems to know why.

I rented the Varadero two times. It is a really good tourer. But weight is hefty, and by standards now it is a bit outdated. It would be a pretty hefty pound to handle in Singapore. In a country with long open roads it is fine. No much gap in between the ST1300 and the Vara.

There is supposed to be a big brother of the Yamaha XT660 Tenere in the pipeline. A successor to the XTZ 750 Super Tenere

Adventure tourers have more than 20 % market share in Europe (except UK). If you travel to France or Germany, on week-ends you will see hordes of them, like in the US the Harleys.

Quoted from "ghostrider1964"

I appreciate that but I feel the American Market is ripe for the same market.

I bet you are not the only one who thinks so.

I wonder if it is known how many V-Stroms have been sold?